The Pit - Thread 1 - SPACE RELATED

[spacefan]

I don't think he'd care. He's not an HSF fan to say the least.

Of course he cares. He cares enough to mosy on down to florida to personally explain to you guys the utter genius that is the "Obama Plan". Do you not feel honoured?

[Rick]

Feel honored? No, I do not. Obama serves the people and not the other way around and the majority of those who have a say in the future of HSF do not agree with his change. I am speaking of Congress.

He's not coming to KSC to see us guys. He's coming here because he feels pressure from elected officials.






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[Pholord]

>the majority of those who have a say in the future of HSF do not agree with his change. I am speaking of Congress.<

Both The Senate and the House, almost unanimous - I watched both hearings in their entirety (over 4 hours!).
I believe it was Bart Gordon who called it "Heartwarming Bipartisanship" after Rob Bishop's (Utah) insightful closing statements.
They REALLY hit home - my younger son is finishing up his final (5th) year of his Mechanical Eng. degree. I have stopped sending him any summer internship announcements with contractors.
So now that the Healthcare Debacle is "over", O's team has like 2 weeks to figure out what their plan/vision IS...

[spacefan]

Feel honored? No, I do not. Obama serves the people and not the other way around and the majority of those who have a say in the future of HSF do not agree with his change. I am speaking of Congress.

He's not coming to KSC to see us guys. He's coming here because he feels pressure from elected officials.






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Come now thats not the attitude to take. Obama is coming to reiterate the plan and possibly make an anouncement regarding some form of heavy lift vehicle that preserves as many STS jobs as possible. My money is on sidemount.

[JimMcDade]

As for Greason, even John Kelly has suddenly discovered that the work done by the Augustine panel was defective:

"Yet, the committee's hired analysts now tell Congress they did not apply the same methodology to estimating NASA's potential cost overruns vs. private operators."

Here's another PDF to chew on. Looks like Elon Musk will not get all that he paid for after all.

[Me2]

As for Greason, even John Kelly has suddenly discovered that the work done by the Augustine panel was defective:

"Yet, the committee's hired analysts now tell Congress they did not apply the same methodology to estimating NASA's potential cost overruns vs. private operators."

Here's another PDF to chew on. Looks like Elon Musk will not get all that he paid for after all.

Here it is again.

What did McDade say about me"

"He does not understand that you don't win an argument by accusing someone of stupidity, dishonesty or having other base motives. "

The above post by McDade is slanderous and libelous. He is saying that Musk paid off the analysts and the committee members.

This is the kind of people you let on your website? A lie spouting knownothing, who serves no useful service. What is worse than a non space advocate is an advocate who knows nothing and pushes agenda that is wrong.

I am out of here.

There is free speech and then there are asshole like McDade and Ellifritz

[Rick]

Nothing has changed since the original post. Obama and his cronies are a laughing stock related to human space flight. He's clueless. Further, I believe he's damaged HSF beyond repair.

Screw him.

[Rick]

And Me2, you might want to get off your high horse for 10 seconds and read through some of your posts. You had nothing to do with the current state of affairs about HSF, unless you are a voting member of Congress. You guess very well. Can you admit that? Propably not. Your an ass.

[spacefan]

Nothing has changed since the original post. Obama and his cronies are a laughing stock related to human space flight. He's clueless. Further, I believe he's damaged HSF beyond repair.

Screw him.

No Rick, Constellation and the way it was mis-managed (during the Bush era) that was the sick joke.

Did you see 2nd flight of Falcon/ 1st flight of dragon. Flawless. Surely a vidication of the "Obama plan" in terms of results and value for money.

I believe certain members of congress and thier insatiable appetite for pork have damaged HSF, though hopefully not beyond repair.

[Rick]

Of course I saw the launches. I work where they launch them. :-)

Mis-management is perception, and is indicated by what side of the fence your on. Obama has been given bad advice, and I know that many don't care about job loss. You'd have a much different perspective if you actually worked in the business.

Obama has gutted NASA HSF.

[spacefan]

I do appreciate your personal circumstances Rick and were I in your shoes I would probebly say the same. However there is no getting away from it constellation was hellish expensive. Compare Ares1/Orion with Falcon/dragon, now tell me was Griffin on the right track?

He could have done it sooner and cheaper and leveraged existing shuttle infrastucture but chose to design from scratch. He could have adapted EELV,s to the task. The mis-management of which i speak came from the very top and should be clear to anyone who is prepared to be honest.

[Rick]

I do appreciate your personal circumstances Rick and were I in your shoes I would probebly say the same. However there is no getting away from it constellation was hellish expensive. Compare Ares1/Orion with Falcon/dragon, now tell me was Griffin on the right track?

He could have done it sooner and cheaper and leveraged existing shuttle infrastucture but chose to design from scratch. He could have adapted EELV,s to the task. The mis-management of which i speak came from the very top and should be clear to anyone who is prepared to be honest.

I guess it all depends on how much one thinks HSF is worth in monetary terms. Faster, cheaper failed miserably under Dan Golden.

What to me is the part that I am most aggravated with is all the infrastructure changes that supported Constellation and hardware that was being developed and processed.

The Obama administration estimated the cost of Constellation shutdown to be 2.5 billion dollars. To me, that is an enormous waste, which could have been used for the program of record at the time.

Congress's discomfort has been evident, with the compromises they've made so far with NASA's new vision. I hesitate to label it that, as there is no clear vision at all.

[spacefan]

No arguments about more funding for Nasa, but the agency needs to demonstrate its giving value for money. The problem as i see it is that nasa is inefficient by design. By that i mean it has to keep so many stakeholders happy, Jobs must go to districts of powerful senators and the big defence contractors must get fat juicy cost+ contracts so the more money spent the better these stakeholders like it. Nasa has no incentive to do things better if you follow the logic you end up with constellation. My argument is that Constellation made for griffin the best political sense not neccesarily the best engineering sense.

[Me2]

I guess it all depends on how much one thinks HSF is worth in monetary terms. Faster, cheaper failed miserably under Dan Golden.

It did not fail much less miserably. It just wasn't correctly implemented, the basic concept was good. In 1998, it was poorly implemented. But the concept allowed NASA to have more missions in the 2000 than in the 80's and 90's.

http://www.skyrocket.de/space/doc_lau/delta.htm

[Me2]

Nothing has changed since the original post. Obama and his cronies are a laughing stock related to human space flight. He's clueless. Further, I believe he's damaged HSF beyond repair.

Screw him.

You are clueless and can't see the big picture. The US Spaceprogram is better off. NASA HSF is not US HSF

[Me2]

Of course I saw the launches. I work where they launch them. :-)

Mis-management is perception, and is indicated by what side of the fence your on. Obama has been given bad advice, and I know that many don't care about job loss. You'd have a much different perspective if you actually worked in the business.
.

Wrong, you can't see the big picture. You are too KSC centric. You don't work in the 'business", you only work at KSC, the tail end of the process. Those who work in the business, outside of Florida, AL and TX, know CxP was going to fail. Ask people in the Air Force or NRO, or those who work comsats. CxP was a jobs program and not a space program.

Obama did the right thing and finished it off before it wasted more money with the same end result.

[Rick]

Wrong, you can't see the big picture. You are too KSC centric. You don't work in the 'business", you only work at KSC, the tail end of the process. Those who work in the business, outside of Florida, AL and TX, know CxP was going to fail. Ask people in the Air Force or NRO, or those who work comsats. CxP was a jobs program and not a space program.

Obama did the right thing and finished it off before it wasted more money with the same end result.

And where do you work Jim?

[Rick]

You are clueless and can't see the big picture. The US Spaceprogram is better off. NASA HSF is not US HSF

Not even close to being clueless Jim. Your opinions are respected. I'd thought that you might respect others who do not agree with yours. Guess I am wrong.

You don't even know who I am or what I do, or what involvment I have in this industry.

No bucks, no Buck Rodgers. Remember that famous phrase? Or is everyone that disagree's with you clueless as well.

Lets get together sometime and compare notes. You might learn something.

I doubt you would ever do that though, because you hide behind a shroud of anonymity.

Prove me wrong.

[Me2]

My job has nothing to do with KSC. It just happens to be located at KSC. Previously, the same jobs were done at Glenn, Goddard, Langley, etc. and were moved here 1998. They could be done anywhere, being at the launch sites is not requirement. I have worked missions that launched out of VAFB and Kwaj. I deal with JPL, USAF, MDA, NRO, NGST, LM Sunnyvale, LM Denver, Boeing El Segundo, Boeing Seal Beach, Goddard, Ball, OSC, Spacex, etc. I know what industry thought of CxP.

[spacefan]

As a matter of curiosity what happened to all the flight data from Ares 1x did they come to any conclusions about the design other than it was too expensive.